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Complimentary TM-Town membership for ProZ.com members
Thread poster: Jared Tabor
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:24
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
With best wishes to Happy of Hastings ... May 6, 2016

... from one of the "poor excessively paranoid sods" - although I don't believe I'm either pitiful or impecunious.

 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:24
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
I doubt that many of us here fall into either extreme May 6, 2016

Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
There are obviously two types of people in this world: the excessively paranoid, and the eminently reasonable.

Those who are eminently reasonable judge each new state of affairs on its merits before deciding whether it constitutes a possible danger. Much the way TM-Town is being discussed here and now. The opposite of extreme paranoia (i.e. the totally unjustified suspicion of others) is not eminent reason, or anything like it. Rather, it's extreme gullibility (i.e. being easily tricked or manipulated into an ill-advised course of action).

Google certainly worry me nowadays, although I do remember a time when I thought it was a great company and I was happy to share everything with them. Do you think that Google has no interest in massively enlarging the TMs on which Google Translate is based? Whether they would be able to get their hands on anything stored in TM-Town is another matter; but the desire must surely be there. And where Google desires, Google goes, it appears.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Gooo May 6, 2016

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Google certainly worry me nowadays, although I do remember a time when I thought it was a great company and I was happy to share everything with them.


Yes, but attitudes to Google have changed and the news from the Royal Free Hospital in London suggests that Google plans to branch out in a whole range of different directions by acquiring other peoples' confidential databases: possibly TMs, who knows?

[Edited at 2016-05-06 15:34 GMT]


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 10:24
Member
English to Italian
Confidentiality May 8, 2016

I agree 100% with what Tomas wrote so far about confidentiality.

This is not a matter of "Very Important Translators bound by very important NDAs" or "paranoia", as someone (mockingly) wrote. It's just that basically any NDA you sign includes something along the lines of what Tomas (repeatedly) quoted, that is to say, in short, that a translator "agrees not to copy, reproduce, distribute, duplicate, reveal, report, publish, disclose, cause to disclose, or otherwise transfer any suc
... See more
I agree 100% with what Tomas wrote so far about confidentiality.

This is not a matter of "Very Important Translators bound by very important NDAs" or "paranoia", as someone (mockingly) wrote. It's just that basically any NDA you sign includes something along the lines of what Tomas (repeatedly) quoted, that is to say, in short, that a translator "agrees not to copy, reproduce, distribute, duplicate, reveal, report, publish, disclose, cause to disclose, or otherwise transfer any such Confidential Information to any third party", and confidentiality doesn't come in degrees... There isn't "very confidential information" and "not so confidential information". If you sign an NDA, then "all materials, information or data supplied or disclosed" by the client simply is "Confidential Information" and is subject to those terms (unless the client or the NDA itself say otherwise).

I guess that the "Deshi" TM offline analysis tool mitigates this issue, as it essentially breaks down the source text in words. So, while a cohesive source text received from a client (and the resulting TM) definitely is "Confidential Information", a dictionary containing the same words used in that text probably isn't...

At any rate, I'm quite surprised not only to read that many colleagues apparently don't see any confidentiality issue in disclosing full TMs to third parties, but also by the fact that they regard and happily label those who do as being "paranoid", "naggers", etc...

[Edited at 2016-05-08 12:37 GMT]
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Meta Arkadia
Meta Arkadia
Local time: 16:24
English to Indonesian
+ ...
Culture May 8, 2016

I think that all professional translators are very capable of deciding which information they can send to TM-T or anywhere else.

I also think that NDAs are primarily a result of the American culture (so the Americans seem to have culture after all) of sueing. In more than twenty years of translating, I only translated one set of documents that were top-secret, and that I wouldn't have uploaded anywhere - without having had to sign an NDA... This of course varies with the kinds of t
... See more
I think that all professional translators are very capable of deciding which information they can send to TM-T or anywhere else.

I also think that NDAs are primarily a result of the American culture (so the Americans seem to have culture after all) of sueing. In more than twenty years of translating, I only translated one set of documents that were top-secret, and that I wouldn't have uploaded anywhere - without having had to sign an NDA... This of course varies with the kinds of text you do, but still.

Cheers,

Hans
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:24
Member (2004)
English to Italian
I would never upload my TMs... May 8, 2016

anything can be hacked into and anything encrypted can be decrypted... despite all the reassurances... the risk might be low, but why risk it?

 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 10:24
Member
English to Italian
Unsolvable issue May 8, 2016

Kevin Dias wrote:

...

Erik Freitag wrote:
Other concerns are still valid, though, mainly the issue that the amount of translated work within a given context documented via a Deshi file doesn't say anything about the quality of the translations. The fraudulent workaround described in an earlier post (get large chunks of commercially interesting source texts -> machine translation -> upload TM or Deshi file to TM-town -> high ranking) is, although an extreme case, quite possible. But even if you replace the MT stage by substandard human translation, no client is going to know.


...

Over time this system will improve as our Nakōdo technology allows us to create a unique "fingerprint" of a document, which we can then analyze for similarity against finger prints of known public documents or documents that have been uploaded by other translators on TM-Town.

The above steps are not a catch-all by any means. It is very possible to "trick" the system and claim a document as your own, when it is not.

In addition to what is described above, we also look for certain red flags. We look for outliers in translation unit volume numbers relative to other profile fields such as years of experience, etc. For example, a translator with a high number of uploaded translation units but 1 year of experience would raise a red flag. Translators who have a high number of uploaded translation units but do not have any ProZ WWA positive reviews or do not have any KudoZ points or are not Certified PRO members may also raise potential red flags.

Still, given the above, it is possible for an "impostor" to slip through the cracks. Which brings me to what is most likely our most powerful means of detection.

TM-Town is self-policing

...

However, the above doesn't address the issue of quality. A translator may have 10 years of experience, which in reality may just be 1 year of experience 10 times. The documents s/he uploads are 100% that person's work...but the quality of said documents might be terrible. As such, a translator might look good on TM-Town as having uploaded a lot of work, but in reality be a poor translator.

So how are we currently tackling this quality issue?

Currently we take no stand on the quality of any uploaded work.


So, basically, we come full circle and get back to the original concerns raised by me and others, that is to say, that quantity is basically the only deciding factor for visibility and that someone will always be able to trick the system to get more visibility, while quality isn't taken into consideration at all.

That said, even if you were actually able to identify translators based on the "red flags" you mentioned, I very much doubt you could do much about it... Just to make a simple example: what if I am able to translate 10k per day (I've read several translators claim that...), or post-edit similar amounts? The number of "translation units" I will have translated in 1 year will probably be higher than that of most translators with 5 or 6 years of experience...


In another post, you wrote "Are you equally disturbed that the ProZ.com directory is "ranked" by KudoZ points?". Although not directed at me, please allow me to answer you with another quote from the same post above:



One idea would be to use the same concept that ProZ uses for translation contests. Did you know that ProZ has a patent on this? It is a very interesting system and works very well to determine the quality (or relative quality) of a translation. We could do something similar. The good thing about this type of system is that we could anonymize the translator of the text. Reviewers would never have to review a full TM (impossible and unecessary) but instead just a random statistical sampling of segments from the TM.

Those are my thoughts on the quality issue. I'd love to hear feedback from the community on this and if you have any other ideas or thoughts.


The KudoZ platform basically revolves around the same concept, that is to say, peers grading translation solutions you provide. It is far from perfect, but at least it does take "quality", knowledge of source and target languages, and translation ability into consideration...

In other words, I am more "disturbed" by a directory whose ranking is solely based on quantity and that can be very easily manipulated, rather than by one based on a peer review system ultimately focused on quality...



So that begs the question - why even show translation units? Why have the default ordering of your traditional directory be based on translation unit counts?

The answer is, for Nakōdo to work well, it needs translators to upload work. Remember, translators are our customers. At TM-Town we don't receive any income from clients or agencies. We serve translators. Our interests are aligned with yours. The more work you upload, the better TM-Town can work for you. We thus have an incentive structure in place to encourage translators to load more work (of course with the proper controls that I have discussed in detail earlier in this thread). Just like ProZ.com has an incentive structure in place to participate in KudoZ. KudoZ is only useful if people are using it. Nakōdo is only useful if documents are uploaded.


The only, tiny difference is that, your "incentive structure" actively (although not purposefully...) "encourages" potential abuse and manipulation, in addition to not taking into account quality and translation ability, as discussed above, while participating in KudoZ requires time, effort, and some degree of knowledge and ability.

Also, a question: indeed, why translation units? Why not source words? Using TUs as a parameter seems even more arbitrary and "meaningless" than using source words... E.g. If I translate a 1,000 words glossary, I could end up with a 1,000 TUs TM, while if I translate a cohesive source text of 1,000 words, I could end up with a 40/50 TUs TM...


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Quality isn't cheap May 8, 2016

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

(we) get back to the original concerns raised by me and others, that is to say, that quantity is basically the only deciding factor for visibility


That's because technology cannot recognise quality. From these discussions I get the impression that TM Town, being nothing more than a computer technology, can only process numerical values. It does not have the intelligence to be able to evaluate quality, although it thinks it can reconfigure quality by reducing it to quantitative values.

I expect my assertion will be challenged.I hope so, because I am finding this an interesting discussion.

[Edited at 2016-05-08 12:54 GMT]


 
..... (X)
..... (X)
Local time: 18:24
Not even 2 years in... May 8, 2016

The fact is, we are just getting started. The first translator signed up for TM-Town in November 2014. The first year I was the only developer. Nate joined in October of last year. Ask anyone that has been around TM-Town since the beginning and I think they will tell you we have come a long way. We will still have a long way to go and a lot to do though, no doubt - that is the exciting and fun part.

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
quantity is basically the only deciding factor for visibility


Again, I disagree. Please re-read my prior post on the matter. Our goal is to move away from the traditional directory and get more end clients and agencies to use Nakōdo to find translators. Nakōdo recommends translators based on the type of work they have translated in the past. While quantity does play a role, it is definitely not the only deciding factor for visibility.


 
Matthias Brombach
Matthias Brombach  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:24
Member (2007)
Dutch to German
+ ...
What are the thoughts from the far side of the moon? May 8, 2016

Tom in London wrote:
I am finding this an interesting discussion


Me too and I wonder whether potential end clients and agencies share all concerns mentioned.


 
Meta Arkadia
Meta Arkadia
Local time: 16:24
English to Indonesian
+ ...
True, absolutely true May 8, 2016

Tom in London wrote:

That's because technology cannot recognise quality.


Yep. I for once agree with you. I'd even would like to add that even though I rarely agree with you, even if the subject is Mac, I'd go for you if I needed a IT-EN translator in the field of architecture. Or a proofreader (and it almost happened recently, believe me). Just because what you say here, those things I don't agree with. But then, your wife ran away, you had a toothache, and a black-out prevented you from typing. Your translation was horrible. TM-T is not the Holy Grail, but what is?

Cheers,

Hans


 
..... (X)
..... (X)
Local time: 18:24
Mirko - you are a case study May 8, 2016

Mirko, this past week you received a job message through TM-Town to localize a mobile game from English to Italian. You were the ONLY translator to be contacted by this client. This client found you through Nakōdo. If quantity was the only factor s/he would not have contacted you. You are not 1st in the traditional directory for <... See more
Mirko, this past week you received a job message through TM-Town to localize a mobile game from English to Italian. You were the ONLY translator to be contacted by this client. This client found you through Nakōdo. If quantity was the only factor s/he would not have contacted you. You are not 1st in the traditional directory for English to Italian, nor even English to Italian video games.

This client reached out to you because you have translated similar material in the past to what they need translated...and it is clear from your TM-Town profile that you are professional who can do the job right. You have 9 positive reviews, you are a certified PRO, you are a member of 2 professional associations, you have 5 years of experience in the industry.

Seems like a clear example to me of the system working how it is intended.
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
And that one-.--- May 8, 2016

Kevin Dias wrote:

Mirko, this past week you received a job message through TM-Town to localize a mobile game from English to Italian. You were the ONLY translator to be contacted by this client. This client found you through Nakōdo. If quantity was the only factor s/he would not have contacted you. You are not 1st in the traditional directory for English to Italian, nor even English to Italian video games.

This client reached out to you because you have translated similar material in the past to what they need translated...and it is clear from your TM-Town profile that you are professional who can do the job right. You have 9 positive reviews, you are a certified PRO, you are a member of 2 professional associations, you have 5 years of experience in the industry.

Seems like a clear example to me of the system working how it is intended.


And what about other equally good translators who have not subscribed to TM Town? Please confirm that they are not penalised.


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 10:24
Member (2008)
English to Czech
SITE LOCALIZER
wait a minute May 8, 2016

Kevin Dias wrote:
...this past week you received a job message through TM-Town to localize a mobile game from English to Italian.

Is TM Town itself publicly naming a translator who was approached within an allegedly confidential and secure environment?

Or did the translator in question approve this announcement in advance?


 
cspire
cspire
France
Local time: 10:24
Simple English to French
+ ...
Is there a way to still get the free Starter offer ? May 8, 2016

Hi Jared,

I had your mail inviting us to register for a free "Starter" plan in TM-Town, but I eventually missed the deadline. Is there a way to still get this offer now ?

I need to add 2 other languages (apart from Chinese language) to be translated in French, my native tongue.

And, at first, I'm mostly interested in working on glossaries.

Thanks


[Modifié le 2016
... See more
Hi Jared,

I had your mail inviting us to register for a free "Starter" plan in TM-Town, but I eventually missed the deadline. Is there a way to still get this offer now ?

I need to add 2 other languages (apart from Chinese language) to be translated in French, my native tongue.

And, at first, I'm mostly interested in working on glossaries.

Thanks


[Modifié le 2016-05-08 23:31 GMT]
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