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Agencies that price you out of the market
Thread poster: Tom in London
Merab Dekano
Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2014)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Pricing Dec 15, 2020

My experience is that agencies do not use a flat, one-size-fits-all mark-up. They do it based on client type (or even case by case basis). I am talking about small or mid-sized agencies.

Usually, the mark-up is 2.5-3.0 my price. I am fine with that, since I don’t have to look for the client, organise endless meetings/conference calls with them, deal with their internal procedures, coordinate the deal internally across various departments, etc. I can concentrate on the translation
... See more
My experience is that agencies do not use a flat, one-size-fits-all mark-up. They do it based on client type (or even case by case basis). I am talking about small or mid-sized agencies.

Usually, the mark-up is 2.5-3.0 my price. I am fine with that, since I don’t have to look for the client, organise endless meetings/conference calls with them, deal with their internal procedures, coordinate the deal internally across various departments, etc. I can concentrate on the translation/editing part only, and this is what I love doing.

In other words, neither we nor agencies charge a flat rate to every single customer. Sometimes we (agencies included) get it wrong. Sometimes it’s not wrong; it’s just not worth it going below certain threshold.
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Christopher Schröder
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:13
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Yes. Dec 15, 2020

I just found my local grocery store prices a gallon of milk 7x the price they get from a local farmer. I'll be going every day to get fresh milk from the farmer...hmm, not convenient.

Frederieke de Jong
 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:13
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Yes, but... Dec 15, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:

One thing to remember is that whatever the company's operational costs are, they are NOT to be generated from a SINGLE sub-contractor!

And, in all honesty, what are the operational costs of a company that is making the freelancer cover their own workplace, hardware, software, power, data plan, maintenance, etc., and doesn't grant them PAID sick leave, annual leave, maternity/paternity leave, etc.?


If/when they are paying all that, they will be asking much more from you. For instance, you will not be allowed to have any other clients or jobs, and it will be stipulated in the contract if they are paying all those costs. With those costs covered, you are in the employee status zone, and with those costs covered, you will have a lot more obligations and higher accountability. Will probably have fixed schedule, will have to attend work meetings (even in person), will have to justify sick days, won't be able to turn down jobs or requests, and much more.

You presented a very limited picture, i.e. just one side of the coin.


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:13
English to Arabic
+ ...
..... Dec 15, 2020

Lingua 5B wrote:
get fresh milk from the farmer


Absolutely! PAYMENT-CONSCIOUS people here and elsewhere get their milk straight from the farmer (i.e. the one with the cow, buffalo, goat, etc.); btw, they don't go to the farmer, the farmer goes to them right to their doors. Granted, they run the risk of that milk being diluted with water, but the same risk and more exist with bottled/boxed/canned/etc. milk too.

And, any payment-conscious person always tries to smash the middle links in their pursuit of a product/service. That's how it has always been, and how it will always be!

Lingua 5B wrote:
you will not be allowed to have any other clients or jobs


You won't, on THEIR paid time; but, you can, on YOUR free time, if so you choose. They don't own your unpaid, free time, and no contract can restrict that time of yours.

Lingua 5B wrote:
Will probably have fixed schedule


Haven't you heard? A freelancer does have a fixed schedule; some actually wait on the company for pre-agreed several hours a day, without getting a single project at all the whole day! You just need to check the forum for complaints on this front!

Lingua 5B wrote:
attend work meetings (even in person)


Why is this a problem? If the company wants to waste its paid time on meetings, why not?

Lingua 5B wrote:
have to justify sick days


You're somehow, intentionally or not, implying that 1) worker is a liar, 2) company is neurotic, 3) both, thus requiring a justification each and every time.

Even with that being so, a justified paid sick leave kicks ass of an unpaid sick leave.

And, who says freelancers don't have to justify sick leave? A freelancer rejecting a project will immediately prompt a chain of "Why not? I'm sick! What do you have? Don't know, cold or flu or something! Can't you just squeeze the project into your sick day anyway?".

Lingua 5B wrote:
won't be able to turn down jobs or requests


A freelancer regularly turning down jobs from a company is a freelancer NOT getting jobs from that company anymore. Period.

I take it you are NOT fine with any of those mutual commitment points, but I AM.

Obligation is a 2-way street, and as long as the company is committed, I have no problem being so too.

However, under the current faulty freelance model, they are taking no obligations whatsoever (in other words: ZERO obligations) while the freelancer is taking all the obligations and being underpaid too. And, that is your whole coin! A company charging outrageous fees for sticking themselves between actual client and actual provider, paying said provider peanuts, and -more importantly- evading all operational costs in the process! One sweet deal indeed, but for the company not the provider!

Lingua 5B wrote:
and much more


Definitely, there is much much more!

How about:

- Falling sick and 1) not being able to get treatment because the company one is freelancing for AIN'T providing him/her with a medical cover and the freelancer wasn't saving/being able to save, 2) getting treated with the money one saved freelancing and ending up where one started, but this time with a traumatized body.

- Developing costly work-related chronic cases, such as deteriorating eyesight or ailing back or busted circulation, that the freelance employer will NOT compensate with a single dime!

- Being unable to register one's profession on their ID, since there isn't a single government-approved document that says they are a translator!

Some more?!

***The current "no employer-commitments" freelance model is a recipe for suffering by freelance workers, and is meant to render the wealthy wealthier, not just individuals but countries too!***


Adieu
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
But Sadek... Dec 15, 2020

... I earn way more than I would as a staff translator, and all on my own terms.

I love the freelance model.


Michele Fauble
IrinaN
Kay Denney
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:13
English to Arabic
+ ...
..... Dec 15, 2020

Chris S wrote:
But Sadek...
... I earn way more than I would as a staff translator, and all on my own terms.
I love the freelance model.

Could the same be attributed to what you stated before as "availing yourself of the fact that the set of (Scandinavian) countries you're translating for already enjoy a much higher lifestyle"?

That could be your case, but for other translators dealing with the rest of the world it's "translator versus cheapskates", over-complicated by the 1-way contracts.

Also, "all on my own terms" is quite the exaggeration, because your clients generous as they might be can still reject you at some point without bearing any consequence in such a "no employer-commitments" freelance model!


Adieu
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Yes, my own terms Dec 15, 2020

Yes, they could dump me. But I can dump them too. And I regularly turn work down.

Most of my customers are more dependent on me than the other way around.

At the end of the day, you just can't generalise. Not everyone is being ripped off by parasitic low-rent agencies.

One of the world's largest and meanest agencies regularly pays me an hour for 5 minutes' work.

So who's got the power here?... See more
Yes, they could dump me. But I can dump them too. And I regularly turn work down.

Most of my customers are more dependent on me than the other way around.

At the end of the day, you just can't generalise. Not everyone is being ripped off by parasitic low-rent agencies.

One of the world's largest and meanest agencies regularly pays me an hour for 5 minutes' work.

So who's got the power here?

Answer: SNAP


[Edited at 2020-12-15 19:58 GMT]
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Mervyn Henderson (X)
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:13
English to Arabic
+ ...
..... Dec 15, 2020

Chris S wrote:
Yes, they could dump me. But I can dump them too.

A stable lifestyle can NOT be attained with such a bumpy work relationship, though!
Chris S wrote:
One of the world's largest and meanest agencies regularly pays me an hour for 5 minutes' work.

I totally trust you, but other translators will need to see a written evidence on that to believe it, and probably to charge those exact agencies similarly!


 
Sanjin Grandić
Sanjin Grandić  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 07:13
Member (2020)
French to Croatian
+ ...
Who is milking who? Dec 16, 2020

I just found my local grocery store prices a gallon of milk 7x the price they get from a local farmer. I'll be going every day to get fresh milk from the farmer...hmm, not convenient.

So, visit your friendly farmer and make an agreement with him to send you XY gallons of milk weekly, if it is seven times cheaper it's definitely worth it.

There are way too many small virtual agencies working with bottom feeders, pricing out serious translators.


 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 01:13
English to Russian
+ ...
No, they won't:-) Dec 17, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:

I totally trust you, but other translators will need to see a written evidence


From a freelancer of 30 years in the States, save 3 very short-lived exceptions.

BTW, I have the same type of relationship with one large and mean as well, and it's not uncommon. All of them have their gold reserve, usually people highly specialized in 1-2 subjects, and high-paying clients they dread to lose or feed with chicken s**t instead of chicken salad. Their average margin is so high (partially justified by their huge expenses and overhead), that they can afford to pay real money to a much smaller number of people and still make a nickel. Dollars are made on the others who, unfortunately, are ready or forced to accept nickels for themselves.

Disclaimer: no judgement on working for low rates, I spoke of it many times before. I know that the world is different, large and mean.

Usually those agencies are not prime sources of income for successful freelancers; their generosity has limits:-) More like occasional and smaller gigs but a) as a busy interpreter, I love this part, and b) the pay is good. I look at it as extrabudgetary funds. In return, the reaction better be prompt. Matters of crazy emergencies (hours) are extremely rare and small in volume, the rest can be negotiated but no such thing as claiming inconvenient hours or weekends. I'm a freelancer, I have no idea what those words mean.

About all those risks you've mentioned... Life is a very dangerous thing. We die from it


Christopher Schröder
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:13
French to English
. Dec 17, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:

Lingua 5B wrote:

you will not be allowed to have any other clients or jobs


You won't, on THEIR paid time; but, you can, on YOUR free time, if so you choose. They don't own your unpaid, free time, and no contract can restrict that time of yours.


I have never known an agency to hire a translator in-house without there being some kind of non-competition clause. I know that I didn't have the right to perform any translations for anyone else while employed by an agency, whether or not they were clients.
(I did translate a few things, except it was mostly pro-bono so it's not like the agency was losing out on any money there)

Sadek_A wrote:

Lingua 5B wrote:
Will probably have fixed schedule


Haven't you heard? A freelancer does have a fixed schedule; some actually wait on the company for pre-agreed several hours a day, without getting a single project at all the whole day! You just need to check the forum for complaints on this front!


Translators who daren't leave their computer during the day should either bill a retainer fee, start writing a novel to make good use of their time, or invest in a smartphone so they can get alerts to job offers even while on the go.
i have a running joke with some clients that they only ever call me when I'm at the dog park.

Sadek_A wrote:

Lingua 5B wrote:
attend work meetings (even in person)


Why is this a problem? If the company wants to waste its paid time on meetings, why not?


I'm wondering whether you've ever attended a meeting in your life. I can guarantee that unless the meeting was attended only by translators and their manager, extreme boredom would ensue.

Sadek_A wrote:
Lingua 5B wrote:
have to justify sick days


You're somehow, intentionally or not, implying that 1) worker is a liar, 2) company is neurotic, 3) both, thus requiring a justification each and every time.

Even with that being so, a justified paid sick leave kicks ass of an unpaid sick leave.

And, who says freelancers don't have to justify sick leave? A freelancer rejecting a project will immediately prompt a chain of "Why not? I'm sick! What do you have? Don't know, cold or flu or something! Can't you just squeeze the project into your sick day anyway?".

Wow there's a lot to unpack here. As a former employee (having worked under 8 different bosses), the only manager I ever had who didn't insist on seeing the doctor's sick note was so dysfunctional, he managed to go bankrupt despite a fantastic disruptive product. All the others have been totally paranoid. One even called me to berate me and accuse me of lying for not faxing in my sick note even though I hadn't even finished the consultation with the doctor. (Joke was on him though, because the doctor noticed that the blood draining from my face as I took his call, and added an extra week of sick leave in compassion at having such a jerk for a boss. Let me reassure you, this guy no longer works in translation).
Another boss actually contacted the health authorities to denounce me for abusing my (prolonged) sick leave, claiming that I was just consulting whichever doctor would write me a note. So I had to prove that this was not the case. My first note was from my GP, who then referred me to a specialist because I was clearly seriously ill. This specialist prolonged my sick leave. While still on sick leave for that issue I also needed surgery for an unrelated problem, and the surgeon also gave me a sick note. I then needed to prolong my sick leave because the original issue was still not resolved, but it was Easter and the first specialist and my GP were both on holiday. At that point I did admittedly call round to find whichever GP would agree to prolong my sick leave. But I was genuinely sick the whole time and the specialist renewed my sick leave as soon as she was back from her Easter holiday. The doctor who interviewed me to check whether I had been gaming the system didn't even listen to half my story before telling me not to worry, she had only to look at me to tell that I was seriously sick. Again the joke was on the boss as this doctor then ordered the occupational doctor to investigate the firm, because I was suffering an abnormal level of work-induced stress and she was worried that the other employees might be stressed out too (they were).

And freelancers do not have to justify sick leave. Any time I've been sick since freelancing, I've simply told clients I'm not available, the same as when I'm travelling, or celebrating or whatever else might take precedence over work. I don't know about your clients, but none of mine have ever questioned why I'm turning work down. If ever anyone were to insist, I would suggest they try another translator, and would give them the contact details of whoever might best replace me.
Sadek_A wrote:
Lingua 5B wrote:
won't be able to turn down jobs or requests


A freelancer regularly turning down jobs from a company is a freelancer NOT getting jobs from that company anymore. Period.


Not true for me. Maybe we don't have the same definition of "regularly". When I worked as a PM, there were a certain number of outstanding translators who regularly turned down work from me, yet their work was so good that I would continue to always give them first refusal. Several of the women were unavailable for several months after having a baby. One had to call to say "sorry I haven't finished the translation, here's the part I did a draft for, but I'm getting contractions". That didn't deter me from sending them work as soon as they let me know they were available again.


Sadek_A wrote:

- Falling sick and 1) not being able to get treatment because the company one is freelancing for AIN'T providing him/her with a medical cover and the freelancer wasn't saving/being able to save, 2) getting treated with the money one saved freelancing and ending up where one started, but this time with a traumatized body.

- Developing costly work-related chronic cases, such as deteriorating eyesight or ailing back or busted circulation, that the freelance employer will NOT compensate with a single dime!

Admittedly I'm in France where we have robust health insurance and I have always been refunded a hefty proportion of all medical expenses.
If you're not earning enough as a translator to pay for decent health insurance, you need to up your rates or your productivity.
Also, there are plenty of exercises you can do to offset eyesight, back and circulation problems. Speaking from personal experience for both eyesight and circulation.


Christopher Schröder
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:13
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
I wish Dec 17, 2020

Kay Denney wrote:

Translators who daren't leave their computer during the day should either bill a retainer fee, start writing a novel to make good use of their time, or invest in a smartphone so they can get alerts to job offers even while on the go.


I wish. The kind of translation jobs i get always require me to quickly download various files, often large files, look at them on a big screen, and do all sorts of calculations and stuff. I may also need to exhume very old files from my archive (for example to check how much I charged Agency X that last time I worked for them five years ago).

I need to do all of that before I can say whether or not I can take on the job. I wouldn't be able to do any of it with just a smartphone, in the dog park or anywhere else.

[Edited at 2020-12-17 16:36 GMT]


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:13
English to Arabic
+ ...
..... Dec 17, 2020

IrinaN wrote:
About all those risks you've mentioned... Life is a very dangerous thing. We die from it

Nice excuse!
You hear that, exploitative companies, it's not your fault, it's life's!😃
But, seriously, Irina, I have a couple of technical questions; why is your life very dangerous, not just dangerous? and, how many times have you 'not been with us' so far?😃


Kay Denney wrote:
they only ever call me when I'm at the dog park

I don't have enough money for a smartphone, but I'm willing to invest in a dog; would the dog be able to receive those job alerts?😃

Kay Denney wrote:
I'm wondering whether you've ever attended a meeting in your life.

I can assure you that I have more corporate experience than you would care to have.
And, just because you and your friends at the meeting couldn't be funny doesn't mean all meetings are doomed. There are funny people, and there are boring people! The meeting was the victim!😃

Kay Denney wrote:
the blood draining from my face

My god! This thread is suddenly turning into an episode of ER!😃 Was it contagious, because I don't wanna catch anything?!😃
Seriously, sorry about your illness/infection, and about your luck with bosses and companies! But, any chance you actually got many sick leaves? I've seen a female colleague used to getting 4 sick leaves a month due to the monthly visitor! I'm guessing that monthly visitor was a family member/fling visiting the city once a week!😃

Kay Denney wrote:
This specialist prolonged my sick leave. While still on sick leave for that issue I also needed surgery for an unrelated problem, and the surgeon also gave me a sick note. I then needed to prolong my sick leave because the original issue was still not resolved, but it was Easter and the first specialist and my GP were both on holiday. At that point I did admittedly call round to find whichever GP would agree to prolong my sick leave. But I was genuinely sick the whole time and the specialist renewed my sick leave as soon as she was back from her Easter holiday.

Wasn't this a sweet gravy train?😃 Then, why would you be trying to keep others from boarding that train too? You ain't being fair!😃
Seriously, I don't think your bosses abused you, they were just worried that you were getting paid for doing nothing! According to you, doctors proved you were actually ill, and you got paid for all your sick leaves and so should everyone else!

Kay Denney wrote:
Again the joke was on the boss as this doctor then ordered the occupational doctor to investigate the firm, because I was suffering an abnormal level of work-induced stress and she was worried that the other employees might be stressed out too (they were).

Hurray! Thanks for proving my point! In a committed-employer work relationship, an occupational investigator can tear the company a new one, a privilege that doesn't exist in the current freelance, uncommitted-employer work relationship.

Kay Denney wrote:
I would suggest they try another translator, and would give them the contact details of whoever might best replace me.

Give them my number, I'm quite the catch DEEPL FrenchToEnglish translator!😃 I'll award you 1 cent for every dollar they give me!😃 Don't spend it all on sick leave note bribery!😃

Kay Denney wrote:
Several of the women were unavailable for several months

So, you prefer women, for translations!😃 I just hope water didn't break onto the part they drafted!😃 I hear the amniotic fluid is impossible to unload on clients!😃
Well, there is a million dollar idea: amniotic fluid banks!😃 Slogan: if your fluid is no longer amniotic, ours will render your baby bionic!😃

Kay Denney wrote:
If you're not earning enough as a translator to pay for decent health insurance, you need to up your rates or your productivity.

Why do you always fixate on me? This is a global freelance thing, and not just with the translation sector! All freelancers in an uncommitted-employer work relationship are NOT getting any medical cover, which is a basic employment requirement; and, yes, freelancing is employment, as the verb 'employ' means 'use or engage the services of a person', whether salaried or not!


People, please, when you are trying to impose a sweatshop agenda, make sure you present some sound logic because, believe it or not, others are weighing the statements on the scale of REASONING.

- The life of a nurse, for example, is indeed dangerous, where one wrong needle poke can ruin or even end his/her life. But, we don't hear anyone telling them that "life is dangerous" and they must suck it. No, they have relevant insurance, compensation and indemnity for such a thing. Because that's the right thing to be in place. And, we deserve relevant insurance, compensation and indemnity for our hazards as well!

- Those who spend their daytime at dog parks aren't the same ones that are providing companies with huge profits, sorry!

I'm totally convinced that freelancing is best (either employed or employing) for you two, Irina & Kay, but it can't be the steady diet for everyone else just because you like, or avail of, it!


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:13
French to English
. Dec 20, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

I need to do all of that before I can say whether or not I can take on the job. I wouldn't be able to do any of it with just a smartphone, in the dog park or anywhere else.

[Edited at 2020-12-17 16:36 GMT]


If the work needs careful analysis before I take it on, and the client needs an answer quickly, I'd probably just tell the dog we're going home at once (and try to make up for the shortened playtime later in the day).
Normally, if the project is pretty involved, the client can wait for you to get home?
I mostly get fairly short projects, and my clients mostly have a pretty good idea of what I can do and what I enjoy doing, so I can usually just send a swift "yes I can".
If it does need more careful consideration for whatever reason, I can at least let them know that I've received their email and will be dealing with it once I'm back at my desk.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:13
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Is that a question? Dec 20, 2020

Kay Denney wrote:

Normally, if the project is pretty involved, the client can wait for you to get home?


If that was a question "can't the client wait for you to get home?" my answer is: usually not, because I could be miles away and if I don't confirm my availability, the job will go to someone else.



[Edited at 2020-12-20 09:29 GMT]


 
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