May 31, 2005 04:49
19 yrs ago
日本語 term
金融支援と帝国内の自由往
日本語 から 英語
社会科学
政府/政治
用語の問題ではないのですが、どうしてもこの文章が理解できません。＊のところから＊のところまでが問題です。
「そもそもの始まりはナポレオン戦争で瓦解する前の申請ローマ帝国に張り巡らせれた駅伝郵便組織に範をとって創設した郵便組織――＊これを世襲していたテュルン・タキシス家に対する金融支援と帝国内の自由往来権の獲得だったと言われているが、彼らはこれを徹底的に整備した。＊快速船や早馬、伝書鳩、果てはイディッシュ語を用いた暗号まで駆使し、ロスチャイルドカラーと呼ばれた黄色と青の旗を靡かせて二重底のｐ専用馬車が全ヨーロッパを走り回った。」
以下の用に訳して見ましたが、大文字の所は本当に推測に過ぎません。どなたかに教えていたでけませんか。
的t all started with a postal organization that was modeled after the relay communications system put in place by the Holy Roman Empire before it was dissolved in the Napoleonic Wars. The system was inherited by the Thurn und Taxis family、and UNDER THE GUISE OF FINANCIAL SPONSORSHIP AND SECURING FREE PASSAGE FOR THE NETWORK WITHIN THE EMPIRE, THE ROTHSCHILDS COMPLETELY OVERHAULED IT. They employed high-speed boats and race horses, carrier pigeons, and even Yiddish-based codes, tearing around Europe in their special horse-drawn carts with double floors, flying a blue and yellow flag that came to be known as the Rothschild Colors."
「そもそもの始まりはナポレオン戦争で瓦解する前の申請ローマ帝国に張り巡らせれた駅伝郵便組織に範をとって創設した郵便組織――＊これを世襲していたテュルン・タキシス家に対する金融支援と帝国内の自由往来権の獲得だったと言われているが、彼らはこれを徹底的に整備した。＊快速船や早馬、伝書鳩、果てはイディッシュ語を用いた暗号まで駆使し、ロスチャイルドカラーと呼ばれた黄色と青の旗を靡かせて二重底のｐ専用馬車が全ヨーロッパを走り回った。」
以下の用に訳して見ましたが、大文字の所は本当に推測に過ぎません。どなたかに教えていたでけませんか。
的t all started with a postal organization that was modeled after the relay communications system put in place by the Holy Roman Empire before it was dissolved in the Napoleonic Wars. The system was inherited by the Thurn und Taxis family、and UNDER THE GUISE OF FINANCIAL SPONSORSHIP AND SECURING FREE PASSAGE FOR THE NETWORK WITHIN THE EMPIRE, THE ROTHSCHILDS COMPLETELY OVERHAULED IT. They employed high-speed boats and race horses, carrier pigeons, and even Yiddish-based codes, tearing around Europe in their special horse-drawn carts with double floors, flying a blue and yellow flag that came to be known as the Rothschild Colors."
Proposed translations
(英語)
| 1 | [Not for points] comments |
mstkwasa
|
| 5 | fiancial assistance and free traffic right |
Nobuo Kawamura
|
| 3 | "Through financial support..." |
DBH (X)
|
| 3 | See explanation below |
humbird
|
Proposed translations
6時間
日本語 term (edited):
��Z�x���ƒ鍑��̎��R��
Selected
[Not for points] comments
I would ask the writer of the piece to clarify what he/she means. As DBH has remarked, the passage in the original does not make much sense. So it is possible to read the passage in many ways. The problem lies squarely with it...
Possible meanings other than your suggestion:
1) It is speculated that the Rothschilds aimed to receive the right of free passage within the Holy Roman Empire by assisting the Thurn and Taxis financially, who held the post of hereditary postmaster-general, and subsequently the Rothschilds expanded on the postal system.
2) It is said that the Rothschilds gained financial assistance given to the hereditary postmaster-general Thurn und Taxes [by whom??] and the corollary right of free passage within the Holy Roman Empire and greatly expanded the system.
The only source free from anti-Semitism that I could find is a book review from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140256997/103...
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Note added at 10 hrs 20 mins (2005-05-31 15:09:34 GMT)
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以下の部分でかなり疑問・問題・不明な点があります。
原文：
これを世襲していたテュルン・タキシス家に対する金融支援と帝国内の自由往来権の獲得だったと言われているが、彼らはこれを徹底的に整備した。
これ＝駅伝郵便制度 Cf: Generalpostmeister im Reich
誰がテゥルン・タキシス家に対する金融支援を行ったのか？ ロートシルド？
「と」は間違い？ 「で」「により」？
「帝国内の自由往来権の獲得だった」は目的それとも結果？
「彼ら」＝ロートシルド？
上記のとおり、原文が意味を成しているとは言えないなので、翻訳はかなり難しいと思います。
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Note added at 10 hrs 27 mins (2005-05-31 15:17:09 GMT)
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あと「帝国」ですが「神聖ローマ」帝国を指しているとは思いますが、オーストリアないしフランス帝国という場合もあるかもしれないので不明瞭だということを追記します。
Possible meanings other than your suggestion:
1) It is speculated that the Rothschilds aimed to receive the right of free passage within the Holy Roman Empire by assisting the Thurn and Taxis financially, who held the post of hereditary postmaster-general, and subsequently the Rothschilds expanded on the postal system.
2) It is said that the Rothschilds gained financial assistance given to the hereditary postmaster-general Thurn und Taxes [by whom??] and the corollary right of free passage within the Holy Roman Empire and greatly expanded the system.
The only source free from anti-Semitism that I could find is a book review from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140256997/103...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs 20 mins (2005-05-31 15:09:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
以下の部分でかなり疑問・問題・不明な点があります。
原文：
これを世襲していたテュルン・タキシス家に対する金融支援と帝国内の自由往来権の獲得だったと言われているが、彼らはこれを徹底的に整備した。
これ＝駅伝郵便制度 Cf: Generalpostmeister im Reich
誰がテゥルン・タキシス家に対する金融支援を行ったのか？ ロートシルド？
「と」は間違い？ 「で」「により」？
「帝国内の自由往来権の獲得だった」は目的それとも結果？
「彼ら」＝ロートシルド？
上記のとおり、原文が意味を成しているとは言えないなので、翻訳はかなり難しいと思います。
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs 27 mins (2005-05-31 15:17:09 GMT)
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あと「帝国」ですが「神聖ローマ」帝国を指しているとは思いますが、オーストリアないしフランス帝国という場合もあるかもしれないので不明瞭だということを追記します。
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Your answer is very helpful. I think the と probably is a typo. "
1時間
日本語 term (edited):
��Z�x���ƒ鍑��̎��R��
"Through financial support..."
"Through financial support of the Thurn and Taxis families, who had inherited the system, it is said that the Rothschilds gained the right of free passage through the Empire. In fact, they were completely overhauling the system."
NOTES:
1. This IS NOT what the Japanese says (as I'm sure you know!), but the "と" in the source term seems wrong to me. Something like "にて" would make more sense.
2. I went with "overhaul" for 整備, as you did - because I liked it (!)
3. The following link provides the following information:
"His relationship with Thurn and Taxis became so close that the service began to inform him of any pertinent Information found among the letters (that they had a habit of covertly reading). This mail fraud system was also used by the Emperor Francis to keep abreast of his enemies. While Mayer was receiving stolen news from Thurn and Taxis he was busy setting up his own postal service so that no-one could secretly discover his dealings. This system was eventually so effective that the Rothschilds became the best and fastest informed individuals in the world. The system was so good that many prominent men began to send their letters through the Rothschilds, who of course, always snuck a peak at the contents. The business with Thurn and Taxis helped Mayer receive the title ,,Imperial Crown Agent" in 1800. This title served as a passport that allowed him to travel throughout the Holy Roman Empire. It also provided the right to bear arms, and it freed him from having to pay the taxes and obligations upon the Jews of that period."
NOTES:
1. This IS NOT what the Japanese says (as I'm sure you know!), but the "と" in the source term seems wrong to me. Something like "にて" would make more sense.
2. I went with "overhaul" for 整備, as you did - because I liked it (!)
3. The following link provides the following information:
"His relationship with Thurn and Taxis became so close that the service began to inform him of any pertinent Information found among the letters (that they had a habit of covertly reading). This mail fraud system was also used by the Emperor Francis to keep abreast of his enemies. While Mayer was receiving stolen news from Thurn and Taxis he was busy setting up his own postal service so that no-one could secretly discover his dealings. This system was eventually so effective that the Rothschilds became the best and fastest informed individuals in the world. The system was so good that many prominent men began to send their letters through the Rothschilds, who of course, always snuck a peak at the contents. The business with Thurn and Taxis helped Mayer receive the title ,,Imperial Crown Agent" in 1800. This title served as a passport that allowed him to travel throughout the Holy Roman Empire. It also provided the right to bear arms, and it freed him from having to pay the taxes and obligations upon the Jews of that period."
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
mstkwasa
: I would be careful to use anti-Semitic websites such as www.thewatcherfiles.com as a resource.
2時間
|
|
Oh my lordy! Is it? That's terrible - I had no idea. In my defence, it was "google" I used. I would never knowingly give anti-Semitic sites acknowledgement - or even a vist.
|
2時間
Nobuo Kawamura
日本
日本
Native in 日本語
Works in field
日本
professional translator since 2001
Native in: 日本語 
Works in: 英語 から 日本語, イタリア語 から 日本語, スペイン語 から 日本語, and 3 more.
fiancial assistance and free traffic right
現在のような民族国家に統一されていなかったころの郵便制度の記述ですね。タキシス家に世襲的に委託され（民営事業化）そのうえ法的保護（自由通行権）と財政支援が与えられていたとは誠に面白いですね
10時間
日本語 term (edited):
��Z�x���ƒ鍑��̎��R��
See explanation below
Declined
私はこのへんの歴史にまったく詳しくないのですが、テュルン・タキシス家とロスチャイルド家は敵対関係にあったのですか、それとも…？
この引用ではそのへんのことがよくわかりません。そのへんがわからないとUNDER THE GUISE OF が正しい表現なのかどうかわかりません。またOVERHAULED ITというのも問題です。OVERHAULEDというとなにか機械をばらばらにして改造したような感じです。さらに日本のひとの英語にはよくITが出てくるのですが、代名詞が何を指すのかもっと具体的にしないと、ネイティヴに通ずる”斬れる英語”になりにくい欠点があります。
put in place by the Holy Roman Empire というのも適切な英語ではありません。
いろいろ厳しいことをいいましたが、プロとしてはもう少し推敲が必要な英文です。
タイトルのご質問については他のかたがたがよいお答えを出しておられると思います。
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Note added at 10 hrs 20 mins (2005-05-31 15:10:12 GMT)
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もちろんですが、これは回答ではなくコメントです。なお日本語にタイポが多いですね。
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Note added at 11 hrs 46 mins (2005-05-31 16:36:16 GMT) Post-grading
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The asker has no reason to decline my ¥"answer¥". This is not an answer. This is only a comment.
Your rebuttal on ¥"overhaul¥" is well-taken. Nonetheless there are plenty of other, more appropriate expressions in lieu of your choice -- ¥"overhaul¥". It only takes ¥"educated guts¥" to know the difference.
On IT, there is no ¥"excess¥" use of the word ¥"postal service¥" as far as the given context concerned.
Please do not take my comment personally. Your English needs improvement .... simple as that.
この引用ではそのへんのことがよくわかりません。そのへんがわからないとUNDER THE GUISE OF が正しい表現なのかどうかわかりません。またOVERHAULED ITというのも問題です。OVERHAULEDというとなにか機械をばらばらにして改造したような感じです。さらに日本のひとの英語にはよくITが出てくるのですが、代名詞が何を指すのかもっと具体的にしないと、ネイティヴに通ずる”斬れる英語”になりにくい欠点があります。
put in place by the Holy Roman Empire というのも適切な英語ではありません。
いろいろ厳しいことをいいましたが、プロとしてはもう少し推敲が必要な英文です。
タイトルのご質問については他のかたがたがよいお答えを出しておられると思います。
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs 20 mins (2005-05-31 15:10:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
もちろんですが、これは回答ではなくコメントです。なお日本語にタイポが多いですね。
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs 46 mins (2005-05-31 16:36:16 GMT) Post-grading
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The asker has no reason to decline my ¥"answer¥". This is not an answer. This is only a comment.
Your rebuttal on ¥"overhaul¥" is well-taken. Nonetheless there are plenty of other, more appropriate expressions in lieu of your choice -- ¥"overhaul¥". It only takes ¥"educated guts¥" to know the difference.
On IT, there is no ¥"excess¥" use of the word ¥"postal service¥" as far as the given context concerned.
Please do not take my comment personally. Your English needs improvement .... simple as that.
Comment: "There is nothing wrong with the use of "overhauled" in this context.
"Overhauled" is widely used in non-mechanical contexts for systems, policies, organizations, laws, etc etc.
o·ver·haul Audio pronunciation of "overhaul" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-hôl, vr-hôl)
tr.v. o·ver·hauled, o·ver·haul·ing, o·ver·hauls
1.
1. To examine or go over carefully for needed repairs.
2. To dismantle in order to make repairs.
3. Nautical. To slacken (a line) or to release and separate the blocks of (a tackle).
2. To make extensive renovations or revisions on; renovate: proposals to overhaul the health care system.
3. To catch up with; overtake.
"IT" refers to the postal system. In order to write natural English, especially in literary translation, which is my profession, it is important not to repeat words excessively. I appreciate your trying to help but I am a native speaker of English and an experienced literary translator. I did not write to the list in the hopes of having my English critiqued my a non-native speaker, I was hoping for help understanding the Japanese source text in an ambiguous context. "
Discussion