Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 27, 2012:

I appreciate your words of warning Nikki, which I believe I shall be heeding - not only to protect myself but to protect those who may skim over the "disclaimer" and take my advice "to the letter"... I would much prefer to keep a clear conscience!

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 27, 2012:

I am aware of the legal and moral implications of affirming that such a concoction would be safe to drink, and my client has given me very specific instructions to state clearly that all information in the blog is speculative with the inclusion of a disclaimer to this effect. As I mentioned before, the objective of this article is to provide a comprehensive overview of the plant and its possible uses as a home remedy for the layman who may wish to use it in spite of the lack of scientific study, since there is very very little information available on the web - even with the extracts and links that he has provided me with! I have explained this dilemma but he is of the opinion that my compiling a report that includes the maximum available information would be a step in the right direction towards allowing those who wish to experiment with the plant to make the most informed decision possible, and I do sympathize with this point of view to a certain extent... The project remains on hold nevertheless :os

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 27, 2012:

ProZ is a forum where translators can share their expertise which naturally covers a vast range of technical expertise way beyond the purey linguistic. Understanding the original linguistically means understanding it technically. Going beyond that and moving into the realms of advice on the correlations and implications of a particular product is something I know that my professional indemnnity insurance would not cover me for, nor would I expect it to. You will no doubt know how conservative scientific publications are in the conclusion they draw. They limit their comment to whether their statistical analyses of their results enable the nul hypothesis to be affirmed or rejected. possible correlations and suggestions for further study and/or potential applications are made, little more. What the press do with it thereafter is sometimes quite astonishing.

Kelly, if you are writing a synthesis of several press articles, even reputable publications, do make sure that you are not rewriting the science at the same time!

If this is not tha case, as you have remained silent on this matter, then you can ignore what I've said of course. My legal experience makes me nervous! ;-)

Timothy Lemon Jul 27, 2012:

It would NOT be safe to drink an infusion of the plant. This sort of thing should be left to the experts.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 27, 2012:

@ Kelly Forgive me for mentionning this, but I would check to be sure that my professional indemnnity insurance covers me for this type of work. Just twitchy about it after having worked in civil litigation for a firm specilizing in professional indemnity.
Translating, writing a synthesis, writing original copy and so on are different exercises. If you are going to affirm in original copy, not something you have found in a cited consultable source document that XYZ is safe to drink for medicinal purposes, well, make sure you're covered! Like I said, I'm twitchy about this sort of thing. You might be making yourself liable for something your insurance as a translator may not cover.

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 27, 2012:

Awesome Thank you so much for this confirmation, it is indeed exactly what I have been seeking to find out - that an infusion oif the fresh or dried plant would be safe to drink for medicinal purposes! Thanks again!

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 27, 2012:

hydrolysis While not all chemical reactions go to completion, hydrolysis is one of those that is almost complete - as far as I recall -. Of course the presence of catalysts (enzymes) speeds this process, but does not effect the completeness (position of equilibrium). However, I believe hydrolysis is almost complete (i.e. almost all of the molecules get hydrolyzed if enough water is added...)

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 27, 2012:

Hi Kelly I wonder if your concern is that some of the toxic molecules might make it to the solution without having a chance to be hydrolyzed? If that is the concern, then I would not think so. The purpose of hydrolysis is to make sure the vast majority of the molecules are hydrolyzed... Of course, there could always be 1 in a billion or so molecules that might not be hydrolyzed, but the expectation is that this concentration is too small to cause any problems..

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 22, 2012:

@ Kelly Sounds like your client is asking you to do what the French describe as a "Synthèse de documents scientifiques". The basis of the approach is taught in Terminale and pursued beyond into university. It requires rigour and method. You might like to ask your client if that is the kind of exercise he is expecting you to do here. There is quite an art to it and doing so from French originals into a single English document adds a further challenge. If your client has not set down very clearly what he is expecting you to do, then the analysis and synthesis aspects need to be clarified so that you know how far you are expected to go!

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 22, 2012:

I think I understand that hydrogen and oxygen are the most volatile of all molecules so any individual plant would react differently depending on the other enzymes and molecules involved... I would so dearly like to solve this connundrum so that our combined efforts haven't been in vain, because this plant, while potentially deadly, also has such a myriad of wonderful virtues that could help a lot of people, both physically and emotionally!

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 22, 2012:

@ Zareh This is the conclusion I have come to as well, however I lack the scientific understanding required to be absolutely certain of "recommending" (and I obviously use the word very loosely in the absence of scientific study on this particular plant, so perhaps even "suggesting") using the fresh or dried plant in infusions... unless I can be 100% sure that the molecule extracted by infusion is both beneficial AND safe, I will otherwise have to decline this particular project as the last thing I want to do is to give any misleading and potentially dangerous ideas - but on the other hand, my client would like me to write this article (which is less of a translation than a comprehensive blog compiled from several source texts in French) for this very reason - to avoid any confusion on the subject anbd provide sound guidelines for all potential "apprentis sorciers" wishing to use the plant...

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 21, 2012:

@ Michelle Of course, you are right! I don't know what I was thinking! But now I think that the purpose of infusion may be to "extract the beneficial hydrolyzed product of the toxin into the solution to be used for medicinal purposes. through drinking of the solution that contains this extract."

Michele Fauble Jul 21, 2012:

@ Zareh Of course if the toxin is a precursor of the beneficial active ingredient, you wouldn't want to extract it.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 21, 2012:

@Kelly I'm confused. Whilst I would agree that there appears to be no reason to translate "hydrolyse" by anything other than "hydrolysis", we have no original context to go on, if this is a translation that is. In your note to Zareh, you say that you are writing an article. If it is a translation, then it might be helpful to have an extract of the original.

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 21, 2012:

Infusion and maceration Hi Kelly:

Here
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3097500/

you can read and see that infusion and maceration are other methods of extracting toxins from herbal components. Extraction involves first dissolving the toxic substance in a proper solvent and then separating them from the part to be consumed. I have done these myself, albeit not on herbal substances. thus, infusion and maceration provide additional ways (in addition to crushing) of getting rid of the toxins. Crushing releases enzymes (in cell walls, lysosomes) that speed up the breaking of the "toxic" glycosidic bonds. Maceration and infusion remove toxins by another method; extraction.

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 21, 2012:

acid or base for hydrolysis to occur sufficiently rapidly, acid or base is needed as catalyst (these speed up the reaction.

Alison Billington Jul 21, 2012:

Further to your reply to my note: compound among water molecules can just be diluted but if they hydrolyse this means that they react to add water H2O to their structure and become something different.

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 21, 2012:

Then I found this... http://www.buckmountainbotanicals.net/treatments/sedative_pu...

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 21, 2012:

I found this link which seems to support what Zareh has been saying: http://www.hippocratus.com/modules/mdc_Fiches_Plantes/detail... , in reference to your note Alison, logic would have me suppose that any molecules that find themselves in the water after infusion have undergone a chemical / molecular change?

Alison Billington Jul 21, 2012:

Hydrolysis is the chemical addition of water toa compound. It often means that chemical bonds are broken and another substance is formed. Hydrolysis could therefore mean infusion and if this consisted of addign hot water might easily mean a reaction which led to less toxic or benficial effects from the substanc formed.

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 21, 2012:

If you have the time it would be greatly appreciated! I admit that I have spent the last two days trawling the internet to no avail, but then perhaps your research skills are more finely tuned than mine :o) Thanks Zareh!

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 21, 2012:

I wish I did... I don't know how the homeopathic process is done...
I will try to research that to see if I can come up with useful and pertinent information.

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 21, 2012:

Thank you for these clarifications Which still leaves a question mark around the crushing of all the tissues, and what would happen with infusion... Do you have any idea how the homeopathic process is done?

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 21, 2012:

I would say that the crushing is needed in order to liberate the enzymes that are housed within the lysosomes in the cells.

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 21, 2012:

I believe that something similar happens in the case of garlic. When crushed, enzymatically catalyzed chemical reactions take place the products of which are responsible for the characteristic smell of garlic.

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 21, 2012:

To Kelly: tissues are crushed According to this excerpt, the tissues are crushed and as a result (I think) enzymes are released) that hydrolylze the glycosidic bonds, thus rendering the components non-toxic:

The most notable compounds in pulsatilla and many other Ranunculaceae are ranunculin, protoanemonin, and anemonin. Ranunculin is a glycoside that is enzymatically hydrolyzed when the tissues are crushed to the volatile unsaturated lactone protoanemonin, which then dimerizes to anemonin on exposure to air. Protoanemonin is extremely volatile and vesicant. Anemonin was first isolated in 1792, 5 and protoanemonin was elucidated in 1920. 6 Ranunculin was characterized in 1951, and the gross structure of anemonin was proposed. 7 The complete stereostructure of anemonin was determined by x-ray crystallography in 1965.

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 21, 2012:

Zareh & Tech Of course I realise that an accurate translation would be hydrolysis, however I need to know whether this process occurs upon infusion or maceration - and in light of Tech's last link, I am wondering if perhaps it does.. the part that stumps me is: "the addition of specific enzymes" - where do these enzymes come from?

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 20, 2012:

@TechLawDC You are right about alcohol... If anything, alcohol would do "alcoholysis", not "hydrolysis"..

TechLawDC Jul 20, 2012:

Enzymatic hydrolysis is well known, including in p Enzymatic hydrolysis is well known, including in plant chemistry.
------
http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Enzymatic_hydrolysi...
A catalytic decomposition of a chemical compound by reaction with water, such as the conversion of cellulosic materials into fermentable sugars by the addition of specific enzymes.

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 20, 2012:

Kelly: If the question is about the word "hydrolyse", then what stops us from translating it by its scientific term equivalent in English - "hydrolysis"?

Michele Fauble Jul 20, 2012:

I've reposted with a working link.

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 20, 2012:

I see what you mean My immediate reaction is to wonder how one can possibly be sure of crushing every little bit of the plant tissue that contains the toxic substance! Thank you for your advice, however I am unable to open the link that you posted for some reason...

Michele Fauble Jul 20, 2012:

But even then it may not be safe. See my reference note.

Michele Fauble Jul 20, 2012:

My understanding is that the plant tissues need to be crushed, after which enzymatic hydrolysis takes place, and then left to dry (air exposure) before it is safe.

TechLawDC Jul 20, 2012:

Alcohol does not serve as a hydrolysis agent. (Alcohol hydrolyzes essentially nothing.)

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 20, 2012:

Zara Please see my comment on your answer below.

Zareh Darakjian Ph.D. Jul 20, 2012:

Is alcohol, or homeopathic process mentioned somewhere in the text?

Kelly Harrison (asker) Jul 20, 2012:

Thank you all for this valuable information I suppose this means that one absolutely cannot recommend making a simple infusion from the plant - and instead refers exclusively to the homeopathic process using alcohol?