| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Italian agency not accepting Wise (formerly TransferWise) account "for tax reasons" Thread poster: Glyn Lloyd-Jones
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Glyn Lloyd-Jones 
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:34
Member (2015)
Italian to English
I know I'm late to the party, but I recently set up a Wise multi-currency account to avoid being stung by the absurd costs of receiving Euro payments in the UK as most of my clients are in Italy. I informed the agencies with which I work regularly of the new European IBAN (in Belgium), and most of them acknowledged it (and one even congratulated me on the choice).
However, one in particular objected, saying that "for tax reasons" the account holder must be resident in the same count... See more I know I'm late to the party, but I recently set up a Wise multi-currency account to avoid being stung by the absurd costs of receiving Euro payments in the UK as most of my clients are in Italy. I informed the agencies with which I work regularly of the new European IBAN (in Belgium), and most of them acknowledged it (and one even congratulated me on the choice).
However, one in particular objected, saying that "for tax reasons" the account holder must be resident in the same country as the account.
Has anyone ever come across anything similar, especially in relation to Italian tax law (maybe money laundering laws)?
Conversely, can anyone provide tangible evidence that this is not the case?
In the meantime I'll wait to see if the more cooperative clients do in fact manage to pay me through Wise.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | | Glyn Lloyd-Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:34
Member (2015)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
In fact, so-called IBAN discrimination is illegal under EU law
That's very helpful!
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Glyn Lloyd-Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:34
Member (2015)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
A number of Italian banks have refused to give me an account on the grounds that I'm no longer resident in Italy, so that's good to know.
| | | | Steve Robbie
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:34
Member (2017)
German to English
+ ...
... if you moved to the UK, you no longer live in the EU and the provisions that prevent discrimination between Member States do not apply.
If all else fails, try opening a euro account with Barclays. They don't charge for receiving or making payments, and you can simply transfer any euros you receive to your Wise account.
| | | | Glyn Lloyd-Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:34
Member (2015)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER | That's not strictly true | Apr 7, 2022 |
Steve Robbie wrote:
... if you moved to the UK, you no longer live in the EU and the provisions that prevent discrimination between Member States do not apply.
If all else fails, try opening a euro account with Barclays. They don't charge for receiving or making payments, and you can simply transfer any euros you receive to your Wise account.
the UK is still part of the Single Euro Payments Area (SEPA) and so Regulation (EU) 260/2012 still applies: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/sepa/html/index.en.html
(yes I've been reading up on it)
| | | | | They still apply | Apr 7, 2022 |
Steve Robbie wrote:
... if you moved to the UK, you no longer live in the EU and the provisions that prevent discrimination between Member States do not apply.
The IBAN non-discrimination rules still apply to payments within the EU, which is what this case concerns. Where the beneficiary is resident is not relevant to this scenario.
As for 'tax reasons', it is not the agency's role to play tax inspector on behalf of HM Revenue and Customs.
Ask them to point out which law or rule prevents them from paying into your Wise account.
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Tony Keily
Local time: 23:34
Italian to English
+ ...
| IBAN discrimination probably isn't the issue here | Apr 7, 2022 |
IBAN discrimination (a retail market payments-related issue involving basic/consumer accounts) doesn't seem to apply here since the agency has specified that this is a tax issue.
I've lived in Italy for years and have had a quick look online and can't see anything relating to cases where a payee's tax domicile doesn't correspond to their bank account location in a B2B transaction.
What I can say is that the Revenue Agency (AdE) here scares the life out of taxpayers, who... See more IBAN discrimination (a retail market payments-related issue involving basic/consumer accounts) doesn't seem to apply here since the agency has specified that this is a tax issue.
I've lived in Italy for years and have had a quick look online and can't see anything relating to cases where a payee's tax domicile doesn't correspond to their bank account location in a B2B transaction.
What I can say is that the Revenue Agency (AdE) here scares the life out of taxpayers, who pay exorbitant sums to the closed-shop profession of accountants, essentially for protection. The AdE's rule seems to be 'wherever possible, keep it complicated' (which of course keeps the accountants, a powerful lobby, in work). As a result taxpayers tend to be fearful and disoriented, and overcautious in any case they think might incur the AdE's wrath.
Not much help to you, though!
[Edited at 2022-04-07 12:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Daniel Frisano
Italy
Local time: 23:34
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
| It's Italy, right? | Apr 7, 2022 |
That looks like a typical case of us Italians finding creative ways to be a pain in the neck, our good old national pastime.
Tell them that your other clients are perfectly fine with this arrangement, and so is your tax authority, and so is everybody else in Europe (in OR out of the EU) all the way up to Ursula, and that your your tax consultant says there's nothing wrong with it and they might as well stop being such arses.
Feel free to quote me on the latter point.
| | | | | IBAN discrimination is the issue | Apr 7, 2022 |
Tony Keily wrote:
IBAN discrimination (a retail market payments-related issue involving basic/consumer accounts) doesn't seem to apply here since the agency has specified that this is a tax issue.
I've lived in Italy for years and have had a quick look online and can't see anything relating to cases where a payee's tax domicile doesn't correspond to their bank account location in a B2B transaction.
What I can say is that the Revenue Agency (AdE) here scares the life out of taxpayers, who pay exorbitant sums to the closed-shop profession of accountants, essentially for protection. The AdE's rule seems to be 'wherever possible, keep it complicated' (which of course keeps the accountants, a powerful lobby, in work). As a result taxpayers tend to be fearful and disoriented, and overcautious in any case they think might incur the AdE's wrath.
Not much help to you, though!
[Edited at 2022-04-07 12:44 GMT]
The rules on IBAN discrimination are not limited to retail or certain types of accounts (basic, consumer or whatever) but simply apply globally, saying very clearly that it is illegal to refuse to debit from or credit to an account simply because of the country code of the IBAN. That means that it is also illegal to use some bogus excuse such as an unsubstantiated 'tax issue' claim to refuse to pay into or debit from such an account. A national tax provision cannot overrule EU law anyway.
The IBAN discrimination rules are massively flouted in Germany, where utility companies, telecoms providers, service comparison websites for consumers and many other companies regularly sabotage the use of non-German IBANs, and authorities fail to stop this widespread abuse. Germany always wants more EU except when it has to apply EU law itself.
| | | | Glyn Lloyd-Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:34
Member (2015)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks everyone | Apr 7, 2022 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The IBAN non-discrimination rules still apply to payments within the EU, which is what this case concerns. Where the beneficiary is resident is not relevant to this scenario.
Good point.
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Ask them to point out which law or rule prevents them from paying into your Wise account.
I certainly will.
Tony Keily wrote:
IBAN discrimination (a retail market payments-related issue involving basic/consumer accounts) doesn't seem to apply here since the agency has specified that this is a tax issue.
I've lived in Italy for years and have had a quick look online and can't see anything relating to cases where a payee's tax domicile doesn't correspond to their bank account location in a B2B transaction.
What I can say is that the Revenue Agency (AdE) here scares the life out of taxpayers, who pay exorbitant sums to the closed-shop profession of accountants, essentially for protection. The AdE's rule seems to be 'wherever possible, keep it complicated' (which of course keeps the accountants, a powerful lobby, in work). As a result taxpayers tend to be fearful and disoriented, and overcautious in any case they think might incur the AdE's wrath.
I lived in Italy for many years too, and I agree that is probably what's behind their reluctance to comply with my request, nevertheless IBAN discrimination would seem to be a good defence in this case.
Daniel Frisano wrote:
That looks like a typical case of us Italians finding creative ways to be a pain in the neck, our good old national pastime.
Tell them that your other clients are perfectly fine with this arrangement, and so is your tax authority, and so is everybody else in Europe (in OR out of the EU) all the way up to Ursula, and that your your tax consultant says there's nothing wrong with it and they might as well stop being such arses.
Ha ha, without stepping into the minefield of European politics, you are probably right. I will certainly make that point to them, maybe in a slightly more diplomatic way as I would like to continue working with them.
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The rules on IBAN discrimination are not limited to retail or certain types of accounts (basic, consumer or whatever) but simply apply globally, saying very clearly that it is illegal to refuse to debit from or credit to an account simply because of the country code of the IBAN. That means that it is also illegal to use some bogus excuse such as an unsubstantiated 'tax issue' claim to refuse to pay into or debit from such an account. A national tax provision cannot overrule EU law anyway.
Another good point.
Well, thanks to everyone who contributed - I think I've got plenty to formulate a reply and hopefully get them to change their position. I'll post back to let you know how it goes....
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Glyn Lloyd-Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:34
Member (2015)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
I wrote a polite email making some of the points suggested here, and they backed down immediately. So, thanks for the support!
| | | | Tony Keily
Local time: 23:34
Italian to English
+ ...
| I shouldn't have mentioned the scope! | Apr 8, 2022 |
[quote]Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The rules on IBAN discrimination are not limited to retail or certain types of accounts (basic, consumer or whatever) but simply apply globally, saying very clearly that it is illegal to refuse to debit from or credit to an account simply because of the country code of the IBAN. That means that it is also illegal to use some bogus excuse such as an unsubstantiated 'tax issue' claim to refuse to pay into or debit from such an account. A national tax provision cannot overrule EU law anyway.
Sorry I mentioned the scope of the IBAN discrimination question, since it just distracts from the point I was making. I just meant that IBAN discrimination applied to transactions like this would be without prejudice to other grounds for objection. Obviously if the excuse used is shown to be bogus... it's bogus! I guess the first thing to do would be to ask the agency: "What tax rule stops you paying me through an account in a member state where I am not domiciled for tax purposes?'
But anyway, all's well that ends well!
[Edited at 2022-04-08 12:07 GMT]
| | | | | Reasons to refuse to make a payment | Apr 8, 2022 |
Tony Keily wrote:
I just meant that IBAN discrimination applied to transactions like this would be without prejudice to other grounds for objection (ML/TF, illegality, tax irregularity). Obviously if the excuse used is shown to be bogus... it's bogus! But there are any number of legitimate grounds for refusing to make a payment that have nothing to do with IBAN discrimination.
Of course, money laundering, terror, crime and other illegal activities can justify not making a payment, but that does not seem terribly relevant to this topic.
Tax remains a matter that is mostly outside the scope of EU law, except notably when it comes to VAT, but national tax law cannot be written in such a way that it violates EU law, for example the IBAN non-discrimination rule, freedom of movement of capital, goods and services, general anti-discrimination rules and principles and much more, which is why I said that a hypothetical national tax rule could not make it illegal to pay a supplier just because that supplier uses a bank in another Member State than where the supplier is based.
There probably isn't any such rule in Italy. Some agencies just like to burden us with onerous bureaucracy because they are too lazy to find out what the rules are and it's easier just to demand lots of documentation that isn’t required and insist on restrictions that such agencies' make up themselves.
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