| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Poll: Do you participate in Wikiwords www.wikiwords.org/? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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GerardM (X)
Local time: 07:44
English
| I would love to participate / cooperate .. | Apr 26, 2006 |
The Wikiwords projects is like the WiktionaryZ project a project that in many ways seems to be really ambitious. Both projects aim to include all words in all languages.
There are differences between the two projects and obviously I expect that the WiktionaryZ project will be technically the more interesting project but this comming from me, you would not expect to hear something different.
The WiktionaryZ project aims... See more The Wikiwords projects is like the WiktionaryZ project a project that in many ways seems to be really ambitious. Both projects aim to include all words in all languages.
There are differences between the two projects and obviously I expect that the WiktionaryZ project will be technically the more interesting project but this comming from me, you would not expect to hear something different.
The WiktionaryZ project aims to be the place where the information that can be found in the current Wiktionary projects can be centralised in one database. According to Alexa, the Wiktionary projects are already doing really quite well; it is currently the http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=
2954th website of the world. For comparison, ProZ.com is currently the 3,404 th website.
By centralising data in one database, a WiktionaryZ error needs to be fixed only once. Our aim is to provide user interfaces in all languages, both for the MediaWiki software and for the WiktionaryZ software.
Like ProZ, we are looking for the cooperation with both organisations and people. For a project that is to be part of the Wikimedia Foundation, the extend to which we want to involve organisations is a novelty.
When ProZ decides on a license and when this license is compatible with the WiktionaryZ license, it will allow us to work together on what matters most; the data.
When the license chosen makes for incompatability, we will not only compete on technology but also on hearts and minds of the people. When we work together we can attribute content to whoever supplied it. But more importantly we can show that great translators make a difference to the experience of the subteltly that is in languages. When this is better experienced by the public it will have a healthy effect on the perception of translations and translators.
When we share data from the start, you will find that much of the work that will be done is not so much in providing new translations, but in integrating existing resources that are available either because of it being published under a "free" license or because the people or organisations that produced this content are happy to share their data.
It is therefore that I would suggest to you that this is a good moment to share your resources. It establishes you as an expert in your field. This will not be as easy when large resources have become integrated in a resource like Wikiwords or WiktionaryZ
For all of these reasons, I ask Henry again to really consider the license for Wikiwords carefully. I am convinced that Wikiwords will become more relevant with a "free" license than with a propietary license.
Thanks,
GerardM ▲ Collapse
| | | | PB Trans
Local time: 06:44
French to English
+ ...
| How did this happen? | Apr 26, 2006 |
I haven't contributed yet I found at least two entries under my name.
| | | | | It's from the KOG | Apr 26, 2006 |
Pina Nunes wrote:
I haven't contributed yet I found at least two entries under my name.
Some of the stuff on there has been lifted from the KOG. If you were person that entered the translation into the KOG, you get the "credit" on wikiwords.
| | | | | Welcome, Gerard | Apr 26, 2006 |
Hello Gerard! It is an honor to have you here.
For those of you who do not know, Gerard, along with member Sabine Cretella, are two of the key people behind an initiative called WiktionaryZ (nice name!). Sabine spoke at our conference in Krakow. As I understand it, they are trying to build something like Wikiwords, ie. a database built specifically for building a dictionary wiki. (Whereas the Wiktionary project from w... See more Hello Gerard! It is an honor to have you here.
For those of you who do not know, Gerard, along with member Sabine Cretella, are two of the key people behind an initiative called WiktionaryZ (nice name!). Sabine spoke at our conference in Krakow. As I understand it, they are trying to build something like Wikiwords, ie. a database built specifically for building a dictionary wiki. (Whereas the Wiktionary project from which they are diverging just uses a database build for encyclopedia articles.)
GerardM wrote:
When ProZ decides on a license and when this license is compatible with the WiktionaryZ license, it will allow us to work together on what matters most; the data.
Right!
It is therefore that I would suggest to you that this is a good moment to share your resources. It establishes you as an expert in your field. This will not be as easy when large resources have become integrated in a resource like Wikiwords or WiktionaryZ
Excellent advice, Gerard. One caveat for contributors: practice now on the beta site--it is as easy as pressing a button to import your ProZ.com glossaries--but give feedback on the result and come back to import again it at the end of the beta period. Data entered now will probably get wiped out once at the end of the beta phase.
I am convinced that Wikiwords will become more relevant with a "free" license than with a propietary license.
No question about it. I can guarantee you Wikiwords will have an open license. I am talking it over with specialists now.
I would love to participate / cooperate ..
Glad to have you involved! ▲ Collapse
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Zeinab Asfour 
Jordan
Local time: 08:44
Member (2005)
English to Arabic
+ ...
| We're ready :) | Apr 26, 2006 |
Best of luck...I am sure all of us want reliable refrences in quality and quantity I am ready to work to the best of my ability..
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 01:44
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Caveat emptor! | Apr 26, 2006 |
Having 'played around' with WikiWords on a daily basis since it was opened for beta-testing, and made a certain number of suggestions to its founding fathers, I would strongly recommend to all Proziens that they take time to read some of the WikiWords forum content *before* taking any kind of decision regarding long-term involvement in this ambitious but very loosely-defined project.
With 3 forums, around 80 threads and well over 150 posts, some of which are quite long and detailed ... See more Having 'played around' with WikiWords on a daily basis since it was opened for beta-testing, and made a certain number of suggestions to its founding fathers, I would strongly recommend to all Proziens that they take time to read some of the WikiWords forum content *before* taking any kind of decision regarding long-term involvement in this ambitious but very loosely-defined project.
With 3 forums, around 80 threads and well over 150 posts, some of which are quite long and detailed exposés on the (supposedly) "concept-oriented" methodology of WikiWords, multilingual definitions, dictionary administration and a host of other matters, I feel it may be helpful to provide a short-list of some 'must read' posts (not in any particular order):
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=4&topic=138, and in particular http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=4&topic=138#8
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=4&topic=108, and in particluar http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=4&topic=108#2
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=71, and in particular http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=71#2
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=118, and in particular http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=118#2 and
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=118#3
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=69, and in particular http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=69#3 and http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=69#12
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=114
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=134
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=174, and in particular http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=174#4
http://www.wikiwords.org/?pg=forum&action=vthread&forum=2&topic=110
By all means get involved - but ...
MediaMatrix ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks, Zeinab | Apr 26, 2006 |
Zeinab Asfour wrote: Best of luck...I am sure all of us want reliable refrences in quality and quantity I am ready to work to the best of my ability..
Thank you! Only by joining together can we manage this ambitious project.
| | | | | Just like a translation | Apr 26, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
Only by joining together...
Why so much reluctance when what we only need is to try together to see if we can?
Let's get down to work! Time, trial and error, and many other factors will tell if we were right when we decided to help just a little to build up together a new resource that could, "might" if you prefer, help others (and we are "others" too).
Let's keep on working. My contribution is tiny, almost imperceptible, but together we can make the difference.
[Edited at 2006-04-26 23:39]
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Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 01:44
English to Spanish
+ ...
What is the difference, if any, between Wiktionary, WiktionaryZ and Wikiwords?
--
Dyran
[Edited at 2006-04-27 12:58]
| | | | GerardM (X)
Local time: 07:44
English
| Difference? You bet ! | Apr 27, 2006 |
Dyran Altenburg wrote:
What is the difference, if any, between Wiktionary, WiktionaryZ and Wikiwords?
--
Dyran
[Edited at 2006-04-27 12:58]
http://wiktionary.org
http://wiktionaryz.org
http://wikiwords.org
They are distinct projects, each with their technology and community and audience.
The differences are HUGE.
Thanks,
GerardM
| | | | | Difference, what difference? | Apr 28, 2006 |
I'm sorry Gerard, looking at these references doesn't show me any huge differences. It just gives three flavours of "we have this enormous project, and we need people to come on board". Perhaps I would see the differences if I took a few hours to analyse the three approaches, but I don't have that sort of time.
Could you summarise the differences in simple terms?
| | | | GerardM (X)
Local time: 07:44
English
| Huge differences | Apr 28, 2006 |
The three projects can be devided in two; both Wiktionary and WiktionaryZ use MediaWiki (known as the engine of Wikipedia) for its functionality while Wikiwords is based on a different approach.
Wiktionary uses the standard MediaWiki software; the result is that while the information is great, it is hard to query. A word that has a meaning in multiple languages will be found in the same article and it is not possible to show a subset of the data.
WiktionaryZ makes use o... See more The three projects can be devided in two; both Wiktionary and WiktionaryZ use MediaWiki (known as the engine of Wikipedia) for its functionality while Wikiwords is based on a different approach.
Wiktionary uses the standard MediaWiki software; the result is that while the information is great, it is hard to query. A word that has a meaning in multiple languages will be found in the same article and it is not possible to show a subset of the data.
WiktionaryZ makes use of new functionality of MediaWiki. This functionality called "Wikidata" allows for having relational data in a wiki environment. Part of the functionality will be that we work towards having a userinterface in every language. This means that we will have the same information in right to left and left to right languages and obviously all the different charactersets.
As WiktionaryZ is based on relational data, the datadesign is key. This design has been discussed with many experts including two professors working in this field. Key to understanding why WiktionaryZ may succeed is the concept of the "DefinedMeaning".
WikiWords is what I know the least about. What I do know is that it is based on work done at the University of Priceton. Wordnet is created with the English language in mind. And I am interested both in seeing the datadesign of WikiWords and understanding how it is going to deal with multiple languages and how it is going to deal with semantic drift.
One advantage for the development of WikiWords is that it does not build and expand on a big codebase it is therefore relatively easy to improve the funtionality and the database design.
For WiktionaryZ we have expressed our wish to produce exports in standard formats. We expect that TBX will be the first standard that will be implemented. Two other standards we want to implement are LMF and SKOZ.
Thanks,
Gerard ▲ Collapse
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Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 01:44
English to Spanish
+ ...
GerardM wrote:
The differences are HUGE.
How, exactly?
Please be very specific.
--
Dyran
| | | | Ala Rabie
Egypt
Local time: 08:44
Japanese to Arabic
+ ...
| With all due respect | Apr 28, 2006 |
For me as a translator, not as a webdeveloper, I do not care a bit about what type of technology is used in the three projects; the three of them share very similar, if not identical, concepts and goals to provide a universal dictionary using a wiki approach.
What you are talking about, Gerard, and presenting as 'HUGE differences' is the same as saying that DictionaryA and DictionaryB are totally two different things because DictionaryA is printed on yellow pages with black ink, whi... See more For me as a translator, not as a webdeveloper, I do not care a bit about what type of technology is used in the three projects; the three of them share very similar, if not identical, concepts and goals to provide a universal dictionary using a wiki approach.
What you are talking about, Gerard, and presenting as 'HUGE differences' is the same as saying that DictionaryA and DictionaryB are totally two different things because DictionaryA is printed on yellow pages with black ink, while DictionaryB is in green. This does not make any difference to me; a translator who is looking for a proper/reliable resource would find the two dictionaries to be similar in every aspect, even the horrible sense of colors!
Seriously, GUI!? This is a HUGE difference between the projects!? As a webdeveloper, all of these matters do interest me (GUI, query, accessablity, ISE, DB structure, data output, etc.) BUT, for a translator? No. They will remain the same; the contents would be the same and almost identical, with Wikiwords having more (mis)entries to provide. What would bring me to Wikiwords then? The great GUI or query? The output? What would I do with billions of prompt and beautifully displayed incorrect (mis)entries/results? I would even think of it as a waste of resources to have three GNU/GNU-ish wiki projects with the same goal, and I would not help but to think how would it be great to have the three of them unified.
I use Jim Breen's WWWJDIC so oftenly because it provides a very decent resource for Kanji characters. The GUI is a disaster, but the contents are invaluable.
- Would it be better to have WWWJDIC in a fancy GUI?
Yes.
- Would it be better to have a fancy GUI without the current Kanji resource?
No. And I definitely will not visit that page again.
Translators deal with low-level field; we deal with characters and meta-language in order to produce translation. We use syntax, meta-lingual functions/sets/(sub)routines, grammatical loops, we query dictionaries and references, etc.
Does this sound familiar?
We ARE low-level programmers.
Translators are not blind 'consumers'. Provide me with contents first, then features, and only after that I would appreciate it if you pack it up in a fancy bag!
~Ala
alamnesis.com
GerardM wrote:
The three projects can be devided in two; both Wiktionary and WiktionaryZ use MediaWiki (known as the engine of Wikipedia) for its functionality while Wikiwords is based on a different approach.
Wiktionary uses the standard MediaWiki software; the result is that while the information is great, it is hard to query. A word that has a meaning in multiple languages will be found in the same article and it is not possible to show a subset of the data.
WiktionaryZ makes use of new functionality of MediaWiki. This functionality called "Wikidata" allows for having relational data in a wiki environment. Part of the functionality will be that we work towards having a userinterface in every language. This means that we will have the same information in right to left and left to right languages and obviously all the different charactersets.
As WiktionaryZ is based on relational data, the datadesign is key. This design has been discussed with many experts including two professors working in this field. Key to understanding why WiktionaryZ may succeed is the concept of the "DefinedMeaning".
WikiWords is what I know the least about. What I do know is that it is based on work done at the University of Priceton. Wordnet is created with the English language in mind. And I am interested both in seeing the datadesign of WikiWords and understanding how it is going to deal with multiple languages and how it is going to deal with semantic drift.
One advantage for the development of WikiWords is that it does not build and expand on a big codebase it is therefore relatively easy to improve the funtionality and the database design.
For WiktionaryZ we have expressed our wish to produce exports in standard formats. We expect that TBX will be the first standard that will be implemented. Two other standards we want to implement are LMF and SKOZ.
Thanks,
Gerard
[Edited at 2006-04-28 22:22] ▲ Collapse
| | | | GerardM (X)
Local time: 07:44
English
| More base than the GUI | Apr 28, 2006 |
When you are a translator and volunteer to collaborate on a dictionary project, it is important that the data that you contribute makes a difference. The data should be usable and, the data should be available for different types of usage and last but not least it should have a positive influence on the reputation of the translator.
The data that is available in a Wiktionary project can only be seen as an article on the web. All languages with a word spelled in the same way can be b... See more When you are a translator and volunteer to collaborate on a dictionary project, it is important that the data that you contribute makes a difference. The data should be usable and, the data should be available for different types of usage and last but not least it should have a positive influence on the reputation of the translator.
The data that is available in a Wiktionary project can only be seen as an article on the web. All languages with a word spelled in the same way can be become available within the same article. The data may be great, it is hard to use, it is almost impossible to use it for other applications.
By contrast WiktionaryZ is a relational database. This allows for the presentation of the data in a way that makes sense to the user. The data can be limited to one or more languages and the user interface can be in the language of the users choise.
This may not sound relevant to people who consider a person illiterate when he does not speak English, but the majority of people in this world does not speak English.
For translators it is important that WZ aims to export its data. Not only will there be database dumps, there will also be exports in standard formats like TBX. When you combine this with a "Free" license, the data can be used within applications. The relevant criteria for usage will be attribution; it is important to find who contributed to a rich resource. A professional translator can gain or lose a reputation in this way.. This is however true for everyone in any community by the way.
When Wikiwords and WiktionaryZ have compatible licenses, we will be able to share data. We would like to collaborate with Jim Breen, with anyone. Working together by sharing data is in anyone's benefit. Competing on the presentation, on the application of the underlying data is how the different projects will distinguish each other.
For the moment the differences do not matter much. It is the specialisation of the different projects that will help each project to secure its own community.
When Wikiword is only for translators, it will matter for translators but I am convinced that Henry wants Wikiword to be relevant to the rest of the world as well. It is indeed the rest of the world that provides translators with their opportunities..
Thanks,
GerardM ▲ Collapse
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